討論區 › 粵拼、字碼及輸入法 Cantonese Computing › Penkyampji系粵語拼音「大整合方案」（初稿）拼寫試驗——以歌曲《七夕》、《希望》歌詞為例

meallanfearghai 發表於 2009-12-15 23:34:46

同新法蘭西粵拼簡直係如出一轍！

penkyamp 發表於 2009-12-16 03:37:51

我基本上同意并支持。<br>觉得可以推行。<br><br>原帖由 <i>xiss</i> 於 2009-12-15 19:30 發表 <a href="http://bbs.cantonese.asia/redirect.php?goto=findpost&amp;pid=165656&amp;ptid=19810" target="_blank"><img src="http://bbs.cantonese.asia/images/common/back.gif" onclick="zoom(this)" onload="attachimg(this, 'load')" alt="" border="0"></a>
谂到个好方法
&nbsp;
表示窄元音嘅方式，一律由现时嘅「上凹号」改为用「下加一点」表示，即由ăĕŏ改为ạẹọ；
表示前元音嘅方式，一律由现时嘅「上加两点」改为用「小右勾」表示，即由üö改为 ư ơ；
&nbsp;
经此一变，能 ...

xiss 發表於 2009-12-16 20:40:22

「大整合方案」初稿第一式——《七夕》歌词拼写试验

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[ 本帖最後由 xiss 於 2009-12-16 20:51 編輯 ]

xiss 發表於 2009-12-16 20:50:07

「大整合方案」初稿第二式——《七夕》歌词拼写试验

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<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><B style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal"><SPAN lang=EN-US style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: #333399; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></SPAN></B></P>
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<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><B style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal"><SPAN lang=EN-US style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: #333399; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">si<SUP>6</SUP> gag<st1:chmetcnv w:st="on" TCSC="0" NumberType="1" Negative="False" HasSpace="True" SourceValue="3" UnitName="g"><SUP>3</SUP> g</st1:chmetcnv>ẹi<SUP>2</SUP> do<SUP>1</SUP> nin<SUP>4</SUP><o:p></o:p></SPAN></B></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><B style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal"><SPAN lang=EN-US style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: #333399; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">lin<SUP>4</SUP> yọng<SUP>4</SUP> mau<SUP>6</SUP> dọu<SUP>1</SUP> bạd<SUP>1</SUP> ci<SUP>5</SUP></SPAN></B><B style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal"><SPAN lang=EN-US style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: #333399"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></B></P>

xiss 發表於 2009-12-16 20:55:41

<P>原帖由 <I>meallanfearghai</I> 於 2009-12-15 23:34 發表 <A href="http://bbs.cantonese.asia/redirect.php?goto=findpost&amp;pid=165688&amp;ptid=19810" target=_blank><IMG onclick=zoom(this) alt="" src="http://bbs.cantonese.asia/images/common/back.gif" onload="attachimg(this, 'load')" border=0></A> 同新法蘭西粵拼簡直係如出一轍！ </P>
<P>我哋Penkyampji宜家就系想联同法兰西式等方案，共同造出一套同一系嘅「大整合方案」，以同Jyutping系嘅拼音方案（英式粤语拼音）分庭抗礼，免得用英语音韵结构去硬套粤语音韵结构嘅拼音理论继续横行无忌。</P>

penkyamp 發表於 2009-12-17 03:10:31

正式支持大整合第二式<br>「pengyam」 字典式 同时采纳「大整合」第二式&nbsp; 为 字典式第二式。<br><br><br>希望得到 meallan 的法兰西支持<br>

[ 本帖最後由 penkyamp 於 2009-12-17 03:13 編輯 ]

xiss 發表於 2009-12-17 11:16:29

「大整合方案」第三式——《七夕》歌词拼写试验

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<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 19.2pt; mso-pagination: widow-orphan"><STRONG><SPAN lang=EN-US style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: #333399; FONT-STYLE: normal; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma; mso-fareast-font-family: 宋体; mso-font-kerning: 0pt; text-effect: none">si<SUP>6</SUP> gâm<SUP>1</SUP> tin<SUP>1</SUP> dêg<SUP>1</SUP> ngo<SUP>5</SUP> yư<SUP>6</SUP> sơng<SUP>5</SUP> ngâu<SUP>4</SUP> long<SUP>4</SUP></SPAN><SPAN lang=EN-US style="FONT-WEIGHT: normal; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: windowtext; FONT-STYLE: normal; FONT-FAMILY: 宋体; mso-font-kerning: 0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: 宋体; text-effect: none"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></STRONG></P>
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<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 19.2pt; mso-pagination: widow-orphan"><STRONG><SPAN lang=EN-US style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: #333399; FONT-STYLE: normal; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma; mso-fareast-font-family: 宋体; mso-font-kerning: 0pt; text-effect: none">wai<SUP>4</SUP> nim<SUP>6</SUP> yưn<SUP>3</SUP></SPAN><SPAN lang=EN-US style="FONT-WEIGHT: normal; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: windowtext; FONT-STYLE: normal; FONT-FAMILY: 宋体; mso-font-kerning: 0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: 宋体; text-effect: none"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></STRONG></P>
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<P>&nbsp;</P></EMBED>

penkyamp 發表於 2009-12-17 15:10:54

有第二式的 下点号（窄元音）和右钩号（前元音）就完全够了。第二式已经十分合理简洁。<br><br>第三式 是 没有必要的。不统一的表前元音方式是绝对会造成方案贬值的。我不会支持第三式。<br><br><br><br>

[ 本帖最後由 penkyamp 於 2009-12-17 15:14 編輯 ]

xiss 發表於 2009-12-17 16:27:11

<P>原帖由 <I>penkyamp</I> 於 2009-12-17 15:10 發表 <A href="http://bbs.cantonese.asia/redirect.php?goto=findpost&amp;pid=165815&amp;ptid=19810" target=_blank><IMG onclick=zoom(this) alt="" src="http://bbs.cantonese.asia/images/common/back.gif" onload="attachimg(this, 'load')" border=0></A> 有第二式的 下点号（窄元音）和右钩号（前元音）就完全够了。第二式已经十分合理简洁。第三式 是 没有必要的。不统一的表前元音方式是绝对会造成方案贬值的。我不会支持第三式。 ... </P>
<P>春嘅元音唔系前元音，而系介乎前元音同后元音之间嘅「央元音」。</P>
<P>&nbsp;</P>
<P>老实讲，93式根本就冇么嘢特别，宜家我哋就系要将各方案整合统一，统一就必然要有所改变，有何理由坚持你嗰个93式嗟？？当93式当成么嘢基石，有何依据？93式制定时间长又点？93式同其它方案地位系平等咖！！其它方案可以为咗统一整合而作出一定嘅让步，93式冇么特权？</P>
<P>&nbsp;</P>
<P>93式如果连仅仅一个调号都唔肯作出让步，我觉得实在好难做~~~~</P>
<P>&nbsp;</P>
<P>望Penkyamp你理解啦~~~</P>

[ 本帖最後由 xiss 於 2009-12-17 16:58 編輯 ]

penkyamp 發表於 2009-12-17 17:19:41

如果「春」腹连前元音都不是，那就将「春」腹与「葱」腹并，只加下点号。 <br><br>我从来就没有接受「春」腹非前非后，为开小灶的「中元音」这一多此一举的理论。<br><br>法兰西也没有这样多余的「中元音」理论。 <br><br>「春」如果不是与「葱」同，就是「昌」的前窄对应。<br><br>不接受「中元音」这个完全复杂化，开小灶的解释。 <br><br>并不是有「葱昌两可性」就是开小灶的理由。 开小灶，不是反映规律的合理途径。<br><br>消除小灶，回归规律。不然就没有人接受什么「大整合」。<br>

penkyamp 發表於 2009-12-17 17:21:36

我完全支持大整合第二式。


我完全不支持大整合第三式。


请你理解。

xiss 發表於 2009-12-17 17:49:50

<P>原帖由 <I>penkyamp</I> 於 2009-12-17 17:19 發表 <A href="http://bbs.cantonese.asia/redirect.php?goto=findpost&amp;pid=165827&amp;ptid=19810" target=_blank><IMG onclick=zoom(this) alt="" src="http://bbs.cantonese.asia/images/common/back.gif" onload="attachimg(this, 'load')" border=0></A> 如果「春」腹连前元音都不是，那就将「春」腹与「葱」腹并，只加下点号。 我从来就没有接受「春」腹非前非后，为开小灶的「中元音」这一多此一举的理论。法兰西也没有这样多余的「中元音」理论。 「春」如果不是与「葱」同 ... </P>
<P>唔系开小杜，「春」元音的确系窄元音o嘅音变，不过唔系典型嘅前化元音</P>

penkyamp 發表於 2009-12-17 17:53:38

无论 法兰西 ， Felix Wan 都从来没将 这个 「特殊窄元音」 开小灶化。<br><br><br>我希望你不要开小灶。不然就完全没人接受了。<br>

xiss 發表於 2009-12-17 18:13:18

<P><FONT face=Tahoma>原帖由 <I>penkyamp</I> 於 2009-12-17 17:53 發表 </FONT><A href="http://bbs.cantonese.asia/redirect.php?goto=findpost&amp;pid=165831&amp;ptid=19810" target=_blank><FONT face=Tahoma><IMG onclick=zoom(this) alt="" src="http://bbs.cantonese.asia/images/common/back.gif" onload="attachimg(this, 'load')" border=0></FONT></A><FONT face=Tahoma> 无论 法兰西 ， Felix Wan 都从来没将 这个 「特殊窄元音」 开小灶化。我希望你不要开小灶。不然就完全没人接受了。 </FONT></P>
<P><FONT face=Tahoma>[ɵ]我之所以用ộ表示，原因如下：</FONT></P>
<P><FONT face=Tahoma>第一，佢系窄元音ô嘅音变，故保留ô嘅轮廓</FONT></P>
<P><FONT face=Tahoma>第二，佢系前化音，但系并非典型嘅前化音，系「央化音」，即系唔彻底嘅前化音，请睇：</FONT></P>
<P><FONT face=Tahoma></FONT></P>

[ 本帖最後由 xiss 於 2009-12-17 18:17 編輯 ]

xiss 發表於 2009-12-17 18:22:07

其实Penkyamp你之所以唔接受，唔系音位么嘢开小杜，根本原因系因为佢要对93式作出改变，哪怕只系稍微将第三声调变一变，你都完全唔可以接受，你对93式实在过于坚持嘞，噉样我哋好难洽谈咖

penkyamp 發表於 2009-12-17 18:29:51

你即使要为 「中窄元音」开小灶，请用凹号，不要用 凸号。 <br><br>而且，开了「中」这个小灶，并不能简练表示规律。 <br><br><br>每组 有前有后就够了。&nbsp; 「中」是&nbsp; 「葱」腹如果能找到 「前」「中」，形成 「后」「中」「前」三兄弟，才有理由采纳。<br><br>现在既然只有「后」「中」，理当与其他组合一样，一律用「前」「后」两兄弟表示。　<br><br>或从　Ｆｅｌｉｘ　Ｗａｎ　，　将「后」「中」　合并为同一人，也就是「后」一人。<br>

xiss 發表於 2009-12-17 19:24:53

<P>原帖由 <I>penkyamp</I> 於 2009-12-17 18:29 發表 <A href="http://bbs.cantonese.asia/redirect.php?goto=findpost&amp;pid=165835&amp;ptid=19810" target=_blank><IMG onclick=zoom(this) alt="" src="http://bbs.cantonese.asia/images/common/back.gif" onload="attachimg(this, 'load')" border=0></A> 你即使要为 「中窄元音」开小灶，请用凹号，不要用 凸号。 而且，开了「中」这个小灶，并不能简练表示规律。 每组 有前有后就够了。&nbsp; 「中」是&nbsp; 「葱」腹如果能找到 「前」「中」，形成 「后」「中」「前」三兄弟，才 ... </P>
<P>规律不是艺术，规律是尊重事实，既然有呢个音，就系粤语嘅一个语音现象，就应该反映出嚟，呢个唔系开小灶。Penkyampji系一套严式拼音，唔系一套任我哋发挥嘅艺术品。</P>

[ 本帖最後由 xiss 於 2009-12-17 22:16 編輯 ]

xiss 發表於 2009-12-17 20:05:16

<P>我谂住以后阴去调用「上勾号」表示，即：</P>
<P>&nbsp;</P>
<P><FONT face=Arial size=7>ả ẩ ẻ ể ỉ ỏ ổ ủ ử</FONT></P>
<P><FONT face=Tahoma size=7></FONT>&nbsp;</P>
<P><FONT face=Tahoma>呢个唔系出于个人喜好，而系我花咗足足两晚时间日揾夜揾，喺众多需求都考虑之下揾到嘅重能够走中间路线（不太大地改动93版，同时又利用到尽量多嘅Unicode现成字符）嘅唯一剩余字符符号——上勾号。</FONT></P>
<P><FONT face=Tahoma></FONT>&nbsp;</P>
<P><FONT face=Tahoma>Penkyamp，希望你能够体谅一下，为咗迁就你对93版嗰份固执嘅感情，我已经尽咗最大努力。宜家嘅话，Penkyamp93版除咗阴去调号需要改动之外，其它声调符号可以一律不变，已经系对93版最大嘅迁就咖喇，就希望Penkyamp你稍微，哪怕只系一次，考虑一下人哋嘅难处，对93版作一次改动，一个小改动，好吗？？</FONT></P>

penkyamp 發表於 2009-12-18 05:29:10

二十年不变的阴去调不会变动调号。<br><br><br>我会联合 Meallan 共同反对加入 「出」腹不作后组，不作前组，只作「中组」特殊处理&nbsp; 的 违反整洁性，也违反 法兰西 和 历代 本系传统的 新改动。<br><br><br>鉴于 「大整合」 第二式 整洁于 第三式， 第二式不动摇 阴去调号，也鉴于第二式 忠于 法兰西，Felix Wan , Penkyamp 等「不增加特殊的中组元音」的原本精神， 我将会联合 Meallan&nbsp; 支持第二式，&nbsp; 抵制第三式。<br>

xiss 發表於 2009-12-18 09:18:35

来来去去你都系要支配晒所有方案为你嘅93版服务，噉请恕我无法容忍你嘅野蛮霸道与固执…………

查看完整版本: Penkyampji系粵語拼音「大整合方案」（初稿）拼寫試驗——以歌曲《七夕》、《希望》歌詞為例